The Liberty Dollar and Alternative Currencies
Filed in archive General on November 15, 2007
Via Google Trends, I today learned about the Liberty Dollar, which has been running an alternative currency in the United States and just got raided by the FBI for reasons unknown.
According to the Liberty Dollar Web site, these dollars are legitimate and not counterfeit. Of course that doesn't mean anyone will actually sell you anything if you attempt to pay in Liberty dollars. (I'd say that calling them legitimate and non-counterfeit only means that they are what they are, and that no one is trying to pass them off as government currency.)
From what I can gather, this company has created gold and silver pieces that they mint themselves and have a suggested "value." However, they say they are not meant to compete with U.S. dollars but instead be sort of a barter money. In other words, just like I can barter my old laptop for the iPod you got at that trade show, you could barter your jeans for some Liberty dollars or vice versa. So the Liberty dollars aren't money, buy they are paper and coins that look like money and you can use them to buy things provided whoever you're buying from has also decided that these papers and coins have value.
Of course, if enough people join the Liberty club and pretend that this money has value, pretty soon it does appear to be a competitor to government money, which may be the reason the U.S. is suspicious of it. Either that or the fact that Ron Paul is now appearing on the money.
It's sort of an interesting situation, and interesting to think about. What if a whole bunch of us decided to pay each other in bananas? And what if more and more people started to say, "I love bananas. I'd rather get paid in bananas than U.S. dollars." And what if your Hairdresser said to you, "It's $20 or you can pay me in bananas"? Then what if at some point, almost everyone was paying each other in bananas and hardly anyone was using U.S. dollars and even big retail chains like Target or Wal-Mart started to feel forced to accept bananas as payment in order to satisfy the preferences of their customers? Even though no one has declared bananas to be legal tender, it would be clear that bananas were competing with the U.S. dollar. So what would the government do? Outlaw bananas?
My point is this: at what point does an item that you use to barter for another item become the same as currency? How many people have to accept bananas as payment (or Ron Paul dollars) before it slips from an item of barter to a currency competing with the dollar?
I don't see this as an issue of deep national concern, but perfect for blog posting or discussing with your friends while high as a kite. (Not that I advocate this. Just saying.)
Tags: money liberty dollar they alternative liberty+dollar alternative+currencies dollar+alternative
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Response from:
Hope
(11/15/07 3:57pm)
Response from:
Hope
(11/15/07 3:59pm)
<< I don't see this as an issue of deep national concern, but perfect for blog posting or discussing with your friends while high as a kite. >>
Think again. The Federal Reserve claims to be the inflation hawk, protecting the US economy. Yet, the US Dollar buys scarcely 4% of what it bought when the Fed was formed. Now it is literally being flushed down the toilet. Ron Paul has submitted legislation to eliminate the Fed, and Liberty Dollars represent a walking advertisement that alternatives are viable. The Fed is rankled, because it is clearly failing, and taking the US economy down with it. If their position was legitimate and defensible, they would have no need to fight dirty. There is vast evidence that the Fed is pernicious symbiosis between international bankers and US politicians, designed to allow the politicians limitless supplies of credit and the bankers limitless power to inflate.
All of this has been known since the Fed was formed but no one who publicized it got a fair hearing, and the orthodox press destroyed them by ignoring them. The Internet has turned the tables. Word of this raid will spread to 10s of millions overnight. Emerson wrote, "For every thousand hacking at the branches of evil, one attacks the root". The Liberty Dollar and Ron Paul attack the root of the problem, and the Internet communicates their work like wildfire. That is why the powers-that-be must take them out. What could be of deeper national concern?
Think again. The Federal Reserve claims to be the inflation hawk, protecting the US economy. Yet, the US Dollar buys scarcely 4% of what it bought when the Fed was formed. Now it is literally being flushed down the toilet. Ron Paul has submitted legislation to eliminate the Fed, and Liberty Dollars represent a walking advertisement that alternatives are viable. The Fed is rankled, because it is clearly failing, and taking the US economy down with it. If their position was legitimate and defensible, they would have no need to fight dirty. There is vast evidence that the Fed is pernicious symbiosis between international bankers and US politicians, designed to allow the politicians limitless supplies of credit and the bankers limitless power to inflate.
All of this has been known since the Fed was formed but no one who publicized it got a fair hearing, and the orthodox press destroyed them by ignoring them. The Internet has turned the tables. Word of this raid will spread to 10s of millions overnight. Emerson wrote, "For every thousand hacking at the branches of evil, one attacks the root". The Liberty Dollar and Ron Paul attack the root of the problem, and the Internet communicates their work like wildfire. That is why the powers-that-be must take them out. What could be of deeper national concern?
Response from:
Doug
(11/15/07 4:08pm)
Go after Mickey. I have some disney dollars. Do you think the market will take them for some bananas? Looks to me like the fed needed the metal. So... it was time to go get some more.
Response from:
Being John Galt
(11/15/07 4:13pm)
Liberty Dollars ARE money. They ARE currency. They just are not "legal tender", which means that they are not government-supported "fiat" currency.
Besides, Liberty Dollars are constitutional (gold and silver backed), while the Federal Reserve "notes" are not.
Besides, Liberty Dollars are constitutional (gold and silver backed), while the Federal Reserve "notes" are not.
Response from:
Jeff
(11/15/07 4:25pm)
The offices of Liberty Dollar were raided by the FBI today, everything has been confiscated. There is no official reason why yet.
Response from:
chuck
(11/15/07 4:50pm)
Wake up people please. You are witnessing the NWO in action. They are so invested in this parlor trick that they would squash anything in its path. They have postured themselves, know them by their deeds! Liberty is what they must keep from you. They know that they stand to face trials when we restore our constitution and the people that were complicit in illegal activities will swing. Don't back down. Its only property, wait till they want to cash us in!
Response from:
Success Warrior
(11/15/07 5:11pm)
I wrote up a post on this that will be coming out tomorrow but I'm going to disagree that this isn't important. The FBI siezed someones gold, silver, and platinum and we don't know why. I would say that government theft is a grave concern and that they are probobbly doing it because of the Ron Paul dollar which was going to sell like hot cakes. The Fed doesn't want any competition because they want to enslave every working person in the country. Anything to do with the Fed is a grave concern.
Response from:
Dave
(11/15/07 5:18pm)
I'm not sure the banana example is completely applicable to this situation. One can barter for goods as much as the want. The Liberty Dollar however is a minted coin, which runs dangerously close to a reserved power of Congress (see Art. 1 Sec 8).
Response from:
Jesse
(11/15/07 6:55pm)
Art. 1 Sec. 8 only permits Congress to coin money; this is a power of Congress but not a *reserved* power.
Sec. 10 of the same article prohibits the states from coining money, but says nothing about private citizens.
Of course there's always the commerce clause to cover just about anything they want these days.
Sec. 10 of the same article prohibits the states from coining money, but says nothing about private citizens.
Of course there's always the commerce clause to cover just about anything they want these days.
Response from:
MichiganJack
(11/15/07 9:44pm)
Check out this notice from the U.S. Mint in Sep of last year, long before Ron Paul decided to run. The notice warns consumers about using Liberty Dollars as currency, saying that is illegal. Maybe Ron Paul dollars proved popular, spiking sales, and that prompted feds to act? In any case they clearly were displeased with NORFED over a year ago.
http://www.usmint.gov/pressroom/index.cfm?flash=yes&action=press_relea
se&id=710
http://www.usmint.gov/pressroom/index.cfm?flash=yes&action=press_relea
se&id=710
Response from:
Jeremy
(11/16/07 8:03am)
People are correct to say this is the NWO in action. This is tyranny and theft by the government, pure and simple. Contact the agents and judges involved and demand the return of gold and silver. Your freedom depends on it.
Response from:
Daryl
(11/16/07 9:45pm)
Actually, Jesse, Section 10 doesn't even prohibit the states from coining money. It merely restricts the states from declaring anything legal tender... EXCEPT for gold and silver, which means the states still have the authority to issue gold and silver coin.
It's a sad fact that the American People no longer understands (if any generation other than the first generation of Americans ever did) that that list of powers are not powers RESERVED to Congress, but are, rather, the ONLY powers GRANTED TO Congress. What that means is that it is technically illegal for Congress to do ANYTHING not on that list. The List does not prohibit anything of the States or the People, with the sole exception of the States declaring anything but gold and silver legal tender.
In fact, the first draft of the constitution also listed the power to "emit bills of credit" among the powers of Congress. This was rejected by the Convention. In other words, the government-issued paper dollar is not merely implicitly unconstitutional, it is *explicitly* unconstitutional--that is, illegal.
It's a sad fact that the American People no longer understands (if any generation other than the first generation of Americans ever did) that that list of powers are not powers RESERVED to Congress, but are, rather, the ONLY powers GRANTED TO Congress. What that means is that it is technically illegal for Congress to do ANYTHING not on that list. The List does not prohibit anything of the States or the People, with the sole exception of the States declaring anything but gold and silver legal tender.
In fact, the first draft of the constitution also listed the power to "emit bills of credit" among the powers of Congress. This was rejected by the Convention. In other words, the government-issued paper dollar is not merely implicitly unconstitutional, it is *explicitly* unconstitutional--that is, illegal.
Response from:
paul
(11/18/07 12:04am)
Also, the FED is a private corporation operating as a monopoly protected by law. Clearly immoral and illegal.
I want all my tax dollars back! The national debt should be eliminated as it is FRAUD, and the owners of the FED SUED by the American taxpayers for all the interest paid plus interest and time spent filing taxes!
I want all my tax dollars back! The national debt should be eliminated as it is FRAUD, and the owners of the FED SUED by the American taxpayers for all the interest paid plus interest and time spent filing taxes!
Response from:
Jay Muntz - valueaverager.com
(11/18/07 10:43am)
Bananas are a bad "store of value" because of spoilage. Imagine if bars of soap were used instead.
Here's are the problems:
1. You may be charged state sales tax when you buy soap. This means every exchange of soap for dollars would require that a tax be paid.
2. If you stockpile soap in your basement, then the price of soap in dollars goes up (maybe because of dollar inflation or because soap becomes a scarce commodity) - you will owe capital gains tax on your "investment" in soap, and if you tried to exchange your soap for dollars (maybe to pay the IRS - they don't take soap), the buyer of your soap might have to pay sales tax again.
My (limited) understanding of Ron Paul's proposal is to get rid of these taxes for certain precious metals - so that they could effectively be used as both a store of value and a medium of exchange.
A different question: Are BerkShares next the feds next target?
http://www.berkshares.org/
Here's are the problems:
1. You may be charged state sales tax when you buy soap. This means every exchange of soap for dollars would require that a tax be paid.
2. If you stockpile soap in your basement, then the price of soap in dollars goes up (maybe because of dollar inflation or because soap becomes a scarce commodity) - you will owe capital gains tax on your "investment" in soap, and if you tried to exchange your soap for dollars (maybe to pay the IRS - they don't take soap), the buyer of your soap might have to pay sales tax again.
My (limited) understanding of Ron Paul's proposal is to get rid of these taxes for certain precious metals - so that they could effectively be used as both a store of value and a medium of exchange.
A different question: Are BerkShares next the feds next target?
http://www.berkshares.org/
Response from:
Cliff S
(11/19/07 3:59pm)
"Of course, if enough people join the Liberty club and pretend that this money has value, pretty soon it does appear to be a competitor to government money, which may be the reason the U.S. is suspicious of it. "
This statement is actually backward from reality. The coins and notes being used by liberty dollar are either made of gold and silver or are backed by gold and silver giving them more real value than the US dollars we regularly spend. It is the greenbacks that we have to pretend has value.
This statement is actually backward from reality. The coins and notes being used by liberty dollar are either made of gold and silver or are backed by gold and silver giving them more real value than the US dollars we regularly spend. It is the greenbacks that we have to pretend has value.
Response from:
Metta
(11/21/07 7:35am)
Money 101: Learn more about barter, circulating currency, banking and the Federal Reserve
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-466210540567002553&hl=en
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-466210540567002553&hl=en
Response from:
Vinyasi
(11/28/07 7:24am)
Does the U.S. Govt. Owe YOU Money?
Hearing about the raid on the national fulfillment office of the Liberty Dollar didn't put me in the fit of pink, but I learned to get over it by donating all of my interest in my unfulfilled orders (that were either curtailed or confiscated by the government on Nov. 14). And to encourage greater participation among bystanders, I've further divided my give-away down to as little as one penny provided that these tiny demands for refund be donated to the Liberty Dollar, Legal Defense Fund to help eliminate the logistical nightmare of the Liberty Dollar staff trying to disperse a mere penny to gazillions of people from the proceeds gained whenever the class action lawsuit is completed. But demands for refund which are greater than, or equal to, a dollar could go to you. Since I can contract-out my property to anyone I choose, and further subdivide my give-away down to ridiculously small fractions, my feeble loss (as great as it may seem to me) can be magnified to potentially include lots of participation from anyone who isn't already involved, but who might now consider the possibility that more than just my rights have been violated, but your's as well.
For more details about becoming involved, go to:
http://www.I-Rob-You.info/
Vinyasi, Liberty Associate of the San Fernando Valley....
Hearing about the raid on the national fulfillment office of the Liberty Dollar didn't put me in the fit of pink, but I learned to get over it by donating all of my interest in my unfulfilled orders (that were either curtailed or confiscated by the government on Nov. 14). And to encourage greater participation among bystanders, I've further divided my give-away down to as little as one penny provided that these tiny demands for refund be donated to the Liberty Dollar, Legal Defense Fund to help eliminate the logistical nightmare of the Liberty Dollar staff trying to disperse a mere penny to gazillions of people from the proceeds gained whenever the class action lawsuit is completed. But demands for refund which are greater than, or equal to, a dollar could go to you. Since I can contract-out my property to anyone I choose, and further subdivide my give-away down to ridiculously small fractions, my feeble loss (as great as it may seem to me) can be magnified to potentially include lots of participation from anyone who isn't already involved, but who might now consider the possibility that more than just my rights have been violated, but your's as well.
For more details about becoming involved, go to:
http://www.I-Rob-You.info/
Vinyasi, Liberty Associate of the San Fernando Valley....
Response from:
Santosh
(04/10/09 5:59am)
Dear Sir / Madam :-
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Think again. The Federal Reserve claims to be the inflation hawk, protecting the US economy. Yet, the US Dollar buys scarcely 4% of what it bought when the Fed was formed. Now it is literally being flushed down the toilet. Ron Paul has submitted legislation to eliminate the Fed, and Liberty Dollars represent a walking advertisement that alternatives are viable. The Fed is rankled, because it is clearly failing, and taking the US economy down with it. If their position was legitimate and defensible, they would have no need to fight dirty. There is vast evidence that the Fed is pernicious symbiosis between international bankers and US politicians, designed to allow the politicians limitless supplies of credit and the bankers limitless power to inflate.
All of this has been known since the Fed was formed but no one who publicized got a fair hearing, and the orthodox pressed destroyed them by ignoring them. The Internet has turned the tables. Word of this raid will spread to 10s of millions overnight. Emerson wrote, "For every thousand hacking at the branches of evil, one attacks the root". The Liberty Dollar and Ron Paul attack the root of the problem, and the Internet communicates their work like wildfire. That is why the powers-that-be must take them out. What could be of deeper national concern?